Great post…

I am still trying to figure out my opinion on being a vegetarian… on the morality of eating meat.. the consequences to my body, the enviroment, animals..

I def. want to develop my thoughts on this…

were you raised in an all vegi. household? if not, what got you started?

I’ve messaged you, and look forward to hearing back. Thanks.

Christine,
I highly recommend reading Peter Singer’s classic: Animal Liberation – This book demands you consider the ethical argument against eating meat and either change or defend your own beliefs. It’s an easy and highly engaging read.
Eli

Like Christine, I too am seriously considering becoming a vegetarian… I’ve actually not eaten meat for the past 4 days!

Well done Nour. 4 days meatless, and how do you feel? I felt amazing within the first week. So much of that rotting meat stays in there and bogs you down. It’s part of the reason detoxing has become so popular. Veg heads do not need to detox as long as they don’t have any other bad habits such as smoking.

While health is a good reason to become a vegetarian, I think the most long lasting and fulfilling changes are those that are made because of moral conscience. Don’t get me wrong, adding a few years to your life and feeling better are great benefits, but unless the change is internalized than it becomes strictly a dietary choice and not a political and ethical stand, as it can and in my opinion should be.

You are correct. Making the change certainly makes you feel great about yourself. You’ve made the right decision, and you save lives daily. Without demand, there is no need for supply. It could all stop, but it will take time.

I def. will read that next :) thankss! riht noww i am reading alice and wonderland.. lol
nour, thats awesome! congrats.. i def, want to do it , knowing morally why for sure I am making this decision if I do choose to. that meat.org that christopher recommended was CRAAZYy.. ahh …

Can you post a link to this study? I’d be interested to learn about how “livestock” was defined. For example are fish livestock? In Asia and parts of Africa where wet rice (vs dry rice) is farmed (think rice paddies vs just fields with dry dirt at the bottom) it is common to raise fish in the water simultaneously. This helps to fertilize the rice, reduce insects which the fish feed on, and provide additional food with nearly no human effort when the rice is harvested and the field drained of water. It is an extremely environmentally friendly form of farrming.

You can download a copy of the report via the Food and Agriculture Organization website – http://www.fao.org/ag/magazine/0612sp1.htm – and it certainly makes for interesting reading. I must admit I have always been a meat eater, although I am certainly now revising my opinion. I agree that it’s the responsibility of the more economically developed countries to also show greater social awareness, and if by changing our eating habits we can have a positive effect then this is vital.

The report doesn’t promote a complete change, or indeed an anti-livestock stance. Interestingly it mentions how many poor and developing communities depend upon livestock (an estimated 981 million, or 36%). I guess realistically we can’t expect an overnight change, nor the complete eradication of meat consumption, but that doesn’t mean we can’t start to change our attitudes in the West.

An intersting one I think, and certainly a lot of soul searching ahead for me.

Attacks you with a spinach salad

Ok, before you whack me with the spinach too (and by the way, chard would make a much more useful weapon) I would like to make one suggestion for those considering vegetarianism.

Leaving ethical reasons out of it, it is possible to eat meat fairly sustainably. The environmental detriment comes from commercial livestock production, not the existence of the animals (ruminants and their pesky methane excepted), or the consumption of them.

Switching our meat consumption to free range or wild game, and getting it locally can mitigate just about all of the ecological footprint of the meat.

Free range meat does not require production of feed crops, freeing up that land and the water used to irrigate it, as well as preventing the GHG emissions associated with feed production.

Free range and organic often go hand-in-hand, meaning no water pollution from antibiotics or hormones.

Obtaining your meat locally ensures that rainforests aren’t sacrificed for the sake of the meat, and nearly eliminates GHG emissions associated with transporting the meat.

Choosing wild game completely eliminates everything “production” related, and leaves the appropriate species in their corresponding ecosystems.

Again, this isn’t about the ethics of eating meat, just a reminder that for those who do choose to eat meat, you can still make your choice a lot more environmentally friendly if you change the kind of meat you eat.

... ok, i’m ready for the chard now!

I have been a vegetarian for 2 and half years now and it really isn’t that hard. At first I craved meat but now I don’t even look at the stuff. It’s as if it’s not food! Good luck to anyone who decides to take the step towards becoming a more morally responsible and environmentaly friendly person.

Krista,

No I am not going to try and flame baste you. I would just like to say that your scenario would work if there weren’t 6 billion McDonald’s loving meat eaters out there. That’s a lot of “free range” animals. I guess it would intorduce a whole new level of urban sprawl, that dedicated to the “local” livestock we would eat. Yikes, I can just imagine what north america would look like if we didn’t import our meat from south american nations.

I agree with your assessment if we were a smaller more moderate global population. However, under current circumstanctes we don’t have the luxury to eat meat. No matter how you slice it the time for burgers and steak is over. We need to take action or it won’t just be a matter of taste it will be a matter of survival.

Thanks,

Danny

Hmm… well I think essentially we agree. You see, my scenario never – ever – included eating anything, from McDonald’s. Because I would like to point out that not all of us who eat meat are guilty of patronizing McDonalds.

Certainly, I agree that that kind of meat consumption is completely unsustainable. I was thinking more along the lines of eat what you, or your neighbour, can grow.

When I lived in England pretty much all of my friends and neighbours had their own chickens. Even a friend who lived in a terraced house in the middle of the city. She fed her chickens with kitchen scraps and whatever they could pick off of the lawn.

In return, she had a fertilized lawn, eggs and, yes a chicken to cook, when the time came.

This is the scenario that I had in mind.

The trouble with the “if you eat meat the world will blow up” rhetoric is that it tends to alienate more people than it attracts. If we applaud people for taking steps in the right direction, rather than criticizing them for not going whole hog (excuse the pun), we’ll make a lot more progress.

I didn’t mean to alienate anyone. As you can see from my previous comment I am supportive of those who take a step in the right direction. Your proposal would be such a step if it could be implemented in a wide spread fashion. Unfortunately, that is highly unlikely considering the massive demand for cheap meat. Oh, and I didn’t mean that all meat lovers are McDiers. Long before I stopped eating meat, I gave up fast food.

If you are eating meat sustainably and humanely then cudos to you. Perhaps, you will show people how to eat meat responsibly and in moderation… whoa that sounds like an add for responsible alcohol consumption but you get my point.

Wacks Krista with a bushel of chard!!

Honestly, I am having such an authentically difficult time responding to this. I was a vegeterian for about five years and then transitional (fish and poultry) for another two years (approx.). I can feel how fired up people get regarding this subject. I did too. Then I studied further and lived out some of my education at several sustainable ag. projects. Even gardening for a site leased by the old administrator of the Findhorn Garden. Get real, All of us.
There is no short cut solution to this whole thing. If everyone is not on board, the boat isn’t gonna float.
I feel healthier as a meat- eater and I feel relatively in my integrity eating as much local, free range, organic stuff as possible. Of course I would love to grow my own…... BUT
before that happens many other external parts of our culture need to be greatly reduced in their importance.
Healing the way we interface with our own creation is a deep and broad topic that should always lead you back to yourself. NO book or person can tell you how to best be yourself. If you have never had the experience of even relatively responsible living (i.e you lived with the land), than most of your discussion is purely conceptual. I challenge any of you to look at food consumption as deeply as possible and prove to me that it doesn’t connect to everything else. IF after seeing it’s fundamental connection to all things, any of you are expert enough to still promote vegeterianism in a manner befitting a wholistic approach to global re- examination- I will be ever curious. I don’t mean to sound like an asshole. I just hope to inspire a deeper contemplation.

Honestly, I am having such an authentically difficult time responding to this. I was a vegeterian for about five years and then transitional (fish and poultry) for another two years (approx.). I can feel how fired up people get regarding this subject. I did too. Then I studied further and lived out some of my education at several sustainable ag. projects. Even gardening for a site leased by the old administrator of the Findhorn Garden. Get real, All of us.
There is no short cut solution to this whole thing. If everyone is not on board, the boat isn’t gonna float.
I feel healthier as a meat- eater and I feel relatively in my integrity eating as much local, free range, organic stuff as possible. Of course I would love to grow my own…... BUT
before that happens many other external parts of our culture need to be greatly reduced in their importance.
Healing the way we interface with our own creation is a deep and broad topic that should always lead you back to yourself. NO book or person can tell you how to best be yourself. If you have never had the experience of even relatively responsible living (i.e you lived with the land), than most of your discussion is purely conceptual. I challenge any of you to look at food consumption as deeply as possible and prove to me that it doesn’t connect to everything else. IF after seeing it’s fundamental connection to all things, any of you are expert enough to still promote vegeterianism in a manner befitting a wholistic approach to global re- examination- I will be ever curious. I don’t mean to sound like an asshole. I just hope to inspire a deeper contemplation.

thank you for posting the info. realizing the effect that our food choices have on the environment is crucial. becoming a vegetarian is one of the easiest things a person can do to decrease the impact they have on the environment as well as decrease the amount of suffering that farm animals are subjected to.
i have been a vegetarian for over four years and really cant imagine eating meet again, but lately i have struggled with whether or not my choices really are the least impactful on the environment. in the january 2007 issue of national geographic there is an article attributing the leading cause of rainforest deforestation to soybean production. i really dont like having to choose between the animals or the trees!!!
while at this point in time i would suggest to any omnivores to buy organic meats, i am attempting to cut down on my use of soy based products as well as research where my beans are coming from (since the u.s, does produce its fair share of soybeans).
whatever your dietary choices are, i again have to stress the purchase of local product, since i think its counterproductive to not eat meat to reduce the amount of green house gas produced by livestock, but purchase a tomato that travel over 1,000 miles to reach your plate.
ok, enough rambling about that.
any input or opinions on the soybean deforestation?

It’s nice when people seek to ignite a debate, and one actually ensues, rather than everyone just confirming their original beliefs. I think I’m going to like rethos.

I’m with Krista et al at the moment; I think that what is needed from an ecological perspective is a fundamental change to food culture, but not necessarily one that cuts out meat. It’s similar (but not directly linked) to the kind of change which one has affect in one’s diet when changing to full vegetarianism, engaging in a whole new approach to food, recipes and ingredients rather than just eating exactly the same as before but with the meat removed/replaced. The current western culture of meat with every meal is unsustainable, unhealthy, unpleasant and ahistorical; it is the product of c20th trends. But meat and animal products themselves are not the problem (ecologically), rather it is our approach to them.

The ethical issues of the treatment of animals in the meat industry (and, distressingly, it is an industry even in the organic /sustainable sector) are something else, and some of them are (pain and distress primarily) are unavoidable even with otherwise ethically sound flesh. But I still maintain that the problem is not meat; it our approach to it.

I understand that many (myself included) learned about “Animal Rights” from Peter Singer, but he is a utilitarian and not actually opposed to using animals. If you want to learn about abolition (which is what AR used to be before it was co-opted by animal welfare), read Professor Gary Francione’s work. His website, www.abolitionistapproach.com, has very accessible flash presentations that explain the differences between animal rights and animal welfare, what animal rights actually is (contrary to what PETA might say), and why property rights are at the heart of the issue. It’s fascinating stuff and actually changed my activism overnight.

Here’s something we abolitionist vegans often talk about. I hope it helps: If you wouldn’t eat your dog, and a chicken (as well as a fish) has the same capacity to feel pain, pleasure, fear and boredom as your dog (or even you!), why would you eat the chicken or the fish? Once you get into sentience, you realize there is no such thing as humane farming (not sustainable, but humane) and there certainly is no such thing as humane slaughter. After all of the rationalizations are dealt with, the equation is quite simple.

I became a vegetarian 20 years ago and I’ve been a vegan for years and I welcome any questions or comments. I blog on this topic daily at www.animalperson.net. This is a great new forum! I can’t wait to blog about it! Thanks, Christopher, for raising this important topic.

I study Chinese Medicine, nutrition, herbology, and general health sciences. If anybody needs help on learning to eat a healthy vegetarian diet that your body can stick with message me.

Hey chirrens!

Firstoffly, let me say that I love this post. Sometimes a firm statistical slap in the face is just enough to make someone consider a- how shall I put it- greener diet. Its what made me go Vegan.

Now before some of you carnos out there cringe, I have no bad feelings towards you. Everyone I know is a carno, save for my flat-mate. And I know that ‘vegan’ looks like some sort of contraction between ‘vegetarian’ and ‘crazy person’ to some of you, but Its my environmental views that drove me to that point.

The fact is, that if you consume something, it is produced. Milk is produced by the same cows that eventually become your McHeartbreaker. So, if you eat eggs, you’re still contributing to global badness, but really, meat is the killer. All animal cruelty aside, that hamburger is gonna wipe us off the planet.

And I’ve heard the free-range argument before. To me, if you eat a chicken, then that’s one more chicken than would have naturally been on the face of the planet, and thus one more chicken-sized cumulative pile of crap, and one less chicken-sized ration of water.

So, if you’re an environmentalist, and you mean it, you really must consider becoming a Vegan, or at least a Vegetarian. The few of us may not solve the problem, but we sure as hell won’t contribute to it.

Power to the people,
Bill

”
Diet for a New America” by John Robbins … was that mentioned ? Also, as a veggie I must say one of the things u never want to face as a carnivore is the suffering u cause another sentient being. It honestly & simply takes a certain level of dishonesty & detachment to be a carnivore. If you were truly honest with yourself you could no longer eat meat. I believe it was Shaw who said it best: Until we stop being the graves for dead animals we as a species shall never live in Peace. (major paraphrasing!)

Thanks everyone for all of your great comments. I was not expecting a debate to kick off here.

The soybean issue is also bothering me. I do not feel like we should need to choose between animals and trees. Someone obviously needs a kick in the balls. No one should be messing with our rain forests. They are already more than half eliminated… I’m sure there is a more sustainable way to go about growing the damn beans.

truely a tatamount problem.

however there is a perfectly viable alternative out there. coming soon. hopefully.

with your support.

I hear these facts about livestock production. I did not realize the amounts of wastage that occurs in this industry.

As for going veggie, I have my reservations. for starters, I CANNOT live without meat for a single day! I mean I could have it with vegetables, but I need my meat. I do not yet understand the moral aspect of consuming meat. The plants and crops that we feed on are also living beings.

Yea yea, nice nit-picking Christopher.

You could make twice the contribution by investing in a bicycle. It also will do a number on your health too, believe it or not.

Meat is good for you, and the fact that people are suggesting we exchange diets for the sake of the environment is ridiculous. Stop driving, it’s unnecessary.

Bottom line is no matter how it is produced meat requires the suffering and killing of a sentient being. Cows, pigs etc have as much emotion and sensation as any house pet. The free-range definition is a deceiving one. many free frange animals are slaughtered in the same facilities used by factory farms, and often the conditions on free range farms, while “cageless” are just as inhumane. Check peta.org for the scoop

I’m not a vegan, and I do eat some fish, though I understand how this taxes the environment. So here’s me being hypocritical to some degree and just saying that there is no such thing as sustainable meat, from my point of view. Thought I don’t believe everything he says, I reccommend reading Daniel Quinn. We need to figure out some kind of nouveau agricultural idea, because the way we do it now just isn’t working. One more thing I often consider is how many billion people there are in the world. First world countries eat more meat, because people residing there (including myself) can afford it. So many people! So much distruction!

Wow…I was a vegetarian for a while, but I stopped because I found it hard to get enough protein. I think I’ll stock up the cupboard with some extra peanut-butter and start vegging again. Thanks for the post, I had no idea little decision that I make could have so much impact on the earth!