Forum
Logo
banner

Login to Rethos
Email:
Password:

Not a Rethos citizen?
Not a member? sign up now
11:22 PM, FEBRUARY 04, 2008
316-78_thumb
Nonviolence: Practical or Practically a Fantasy?
Issues: 
611 views | 8 comments
Blog Blog 
316-78_inline

Help! I need your opinion on something.


I’ve been practicing self-defense for a while now, and I constantly find it arguing with my instincts about nonviolence. If you could, consider this article and let me know what a non-practitioner thinks about it.

In martial arts circles (particularly Aikido), there is a bit of an ongoing debate about nonviolence, and I can’t make heads or tails of this mess. Opinions on nonviolence in self-defense are of a wide variety.

Some believe that you can disarm and tame an opponent without harming him, but my school of thought is that this is mostly fantasy, unless you are an eighty year-old who has been practicing his entire life. I am not. Maybe I’ll have that ability one day, but when it comes down to it, this philosophy is just going to get me stabbed.

To the other extreme, you find the people who I tend to agree with. They are the survivalists. We hit, bite, gouge, and dislocate our way through a sticky situation. If an enemy has chosen to engage us, it is possible (depending on the severity of the situation, of course) that his or her life will be forfeit. This would be all well and fine, except for one little thing that trips me up: I am a Buddhist, and to call myself such and yet carry this philosophy seems a bit contradictory to me.

As a Buddhist, I am inclined to resolve things with as little friction as possible. Life – all life – is sacred, and should not be taken in vain. But then I am always left with a conundrum: If I am all that stands between my girlfriend and a man who intends to rape her, what do I do? I know what my own answer would be: whatever I have to. But at the same time, I generally don’t like to hurt people.

Next, we come to the ideas of love and compassion, both etched into Buddhism, both part of Aiki. How can I destroy an opponent and still love him? How does that make sense?

An instructor of mine explains it this way: If you must deal with an opponent, you ought to feel love for him. He is in some unfortunate situation, which has led to his attacking you. And, regardless of what you must do to subdue the adversary, you should still feel a love for him. If you must gouge an eye out, or slit his throat, it should not be done with any malice, but with love.

What do you guys think? Is that some sort of bastardization of a peaceful philosophy? If so, what is the right answer? Nonviolence is wonderful in theory, but I cannot honestly convince myself that it is universally effective in the real world.

So give let me have your two cents on this one. Ask yourself what YOU would do if you were the difference between your girlfriend going home safe, or being raped and murdered, and let me know what you come up with. I’m interested to find out what someone outside of the martial arts world has to say about this.

Remember that nonviolence is an amazing idea. But then try to figure out how applicable is it in a real world where nobody cares what philosophy stands between you and the barrel of his or her gun. Ideas don’t do much bullet stopping. Let me know what you come up with.

Rating:
mostly loved
(by 2 users)  

8 PREVIOUS COMMENTS

Bio_pic_small_thumb FEB 05, 2008
Elias Feghali
Bill,
As a student of a nonviolence, this is a question I continue to struggle with on a daily basis. I have come to no conclusions, but I think you are right to doubt whether nonviolence is always the most effective method. As I see it right now, the extent to which a person is willing to forgo violence in the face of aggression is contingent on his/her spiritual beliefs (whether there is a god of judgment, for example) and/or his/her ability to respond with violence. I don't know where I stand - I think I would have to fight back to the best of my ability if forced to confront the "rape scenario" - Great piece and important discussion!
Eli
316-78_thumb FEB 06, 2008
Bill Landis
Here are a few responses from friends of mine outside of rethos:

Mariano:
"Kill the f--k-r twice if possible. and don't look back... the attacker got himself in a situation I call "instant karma". -oh yeah- With love."

Ishmael:
"As soon as fear enters the mind, for personal protection or protection of another, then the reaction can only be violent, against the aggressor, against the other or even against one self.

If fear is absent, not overcome or conquered as the military trains its men, because it is still present just subdued and waiting to rise again, as proven times and again in military exactions caused by fear and the reactions it creates. Too many martial art teachers have in fact become martial sports teacher and teach how to conquer fear, how to try however vainly to suppress it.

Fear cannot be fought or conquered; it can only be discovered in its true nature and then one can live without it.

So again if fear is absent, then one can observe with a free mind and thus anticipate and whatever action is taken is the right one. If violence is needed it will be used without prejudice and abandoned as quickly.

Peace can only exist when one knows how to live having made fear absent.

Thus the debate of violence and non violence is in fact a debate about fear and how to investigate, observe and discover the nature of fear. Martial arts have degenerated in martial sports and do not lead to this quest. Buddhism, certainly one of the paths closest to the truth also has its shortcomings in the current world.

One is alone to find out for himself the truth.

As J. Krishnamurti said: “Truth is a pathless land.”"
316-78_thumb FEB 06, 2008
Bill Landis
Oh, and this as well:

Ishmael:
"To differentiate the violence from the violent man, the sin from the sinner, is indeed often impossible. It has been my experience that after being beaten there is nothing left of the evil that possessed the guy, and all there is now is a poor soul wondering how it came to this.

So may be we have to beat the devil out of the guy and stop beating the guywhen the devil has left him. The two are difficult as many have trouble beating anyone, and on the other hand many have trouble to stop beating every one."

Onlinetest5_thumb FEB 07, 2008
DanRose
"To differentiate the violence from the violent man, the sin from the sinner, is indeed often impossible."

I believe this quote is refering to the concept of loving your opponent. Maybe loving your opponent is too strong a sentiment. Perhaps, feeling a degree of compassion for their situation and what you are about to do to them is more like it.

As for the help you requested I will now input my two cents.

I have had a few violent experiences in my life and what I have learned from them is that it is almost never worth it. Let insults wash over you and remain calm. Don't let your verbal opponent get the better of you by angering you.

What I am trying to say is that it is better to defuse the situation before it becomes physical. That is not to say that there are no situations that require physical force.

The example given above of a possible rape and violation of someone you love is a poignant one. If you know the motives of your opponent then an attack without compassion is necessary. You don't have the luxury of feeling for your opponent because this might stop you from doing what is necessary. You must be able to take this individual's life without remorse.

Dan
Photo_13_thumb FEB 07, 2008
Jennifer Capo
In response, the thing that comes to mind for me is this: We all have different philosophies or spiritual paths that we are traveling and striving in our lives...

I think the main word is striving. That is why Buddha is Buddha, and we are all trying to self-actualize. I am certain (although I am not a Buddhist) that any Spiritual leader has had to deal with struggles similar or just as pulling as this one...and they too fail...then they hurry back on the path. So, I say keep struggling until it's not a struggle anymore and then you will have reached another level in this Spiritual pracitce.

I personally would defend anyone of my friends/family with any amount of force if they were being violated but I am working on another weakness...not to get upset at innocent phone or insurance company workers for overcharging me. We all have our things.


Meee_thumb FEB 09, 2008
Alec Henderson
I have often said that I do not believe in violence, I never said I didn't like it .

The issues you raise are tough ones but in most circumstances only theoretically tough because if you are a true student of martial arts then you know that the best defense is to avoid the fight in the first place. If you are following the Dharma and training your mind and body then you will become more and more skillful at avoiding confrontations so that the actual philosophical dilemma of 'What should a pacifist do when a loved one is threatened?' is very unlikely to be met in your lifetime.

Theoretically, a true pacifist would love all beings equally and would take great effort to avoid harm to either the aggressor or the victim. This is somewhat codified in the aikido forms wherein the force of the opponent is often used to roll him away using the natural curves of his body. I never studied aikido, but have studied the internal Chinese forms from which aikido is derived. And I can assure you that Aikido's antecedents are not all that peaceful. Most people are surprised to learn that the gentle and peaceful forms of T'ai Chi are drawn from the assassin's arts of ancient China.

The more one cultivates an attitude of loving kindness towards all beings the less likely one will find threats of violence along the path. To the extent one has further cultivated skillful means in anticipation and observation the likelihood is further diminished.

If you truly fear the scenario of being attacked by a girlfriend's would-be-rapist, I would suggest carrying a can of mace. It is non-lethal and violent to a degree well within a pacifist's reasonable response to violence and really, no matter how good you get at martial arts, the mace is going to work better.

So my advice is to train yourself so that you needn't fight and get a dog and a can of mace just in case you do.

As many of you know from reading my posts, I was recently a victim of serious assault. My wounds have healed superficially but the long and difficult karmic task at hand is to understand my role in my own beating and I have a lot to account for in that regard even though the person who beat me had no cause to do so. My martial arts training was of no use to me since I was angry and verbally provocative and was of no presence of mind capable of reflection and skillful means either verbal or physical.

It does not matter whether my assailant is deserving of forgiveness. I must forgive him so I may have peace in my heart. Vengeance may be best served cold but in the end everyone goes hungry. If I could have been more skillful in the way I approached the problem of this man's violence I could have saved myself and him from the beating. By forgiving, I save myself. I failed to save him. That is the violence I have to atone for.
Gmc_pic_thumb FEB 14, 2008
Gina-Marie Cheeseman
As a Christian who attended a Mennonite seminary and believes in nonviolence and nonviolent resistance, I have come to the conclusion that self defense to save your life or the life of others is a natural instinct. I was sexually abused as a child, and if someone attacked me I would fight back.

However, I am opposed to the U.S. use of military might. I am opposed to war. How do I reconcile my two beliefs? I do not. I live with tension. In this world that is filled with beauty, love, hate, and ugliness I realize that sometimes two beliefs can be opposite and still both equally valid. Not all opposite beliefs, mind you, but some of them.
Meee_thumb FEB 15, 2008
Alec Henderson
After posting a comment to this thread I ran into an interesting passage from a biography about Albert Schweitzer by George Seaver:

"[T]here is another another more difficult problem to be solved. All life at the expense of other life: this is an obvious law of the natural world;and man--an ethical and spiritual being---is forced by the selfsame horrible and incomprehensible law to prey on other life, whether animal or vegetable, in order to maintain his own. No one has yet found the thought that will give the answer to this dark and inscrutable riddle of existence; but at least it is possible to adopt a sane and rational attitude towards it also; never to destroy life unless it is unavoidable. And by going out of our way to help any living creature in distress we are helping to discharge a debt--a debt of honour--which we owe to the rest of creation for its vicarious sacrifice to our needs. It is after all the only sane and reasonable course we can adopt."


FEATURED NEWS
Santropol Roulant
Posted By: Fernando   Sep 20, 2008
Audio_video
  fon...
UNIVERSAL ACTION NOW: RIP HIV
Posted By: Tamsin Smith   Aug 04, 2008
Blog
; f...
Olney, Maryland Resident Journeys to India to Help Wastepickers
Posted By: The Advocacy Project   Jul 31, 2008
Blog
I am spending the summer in the slums of New...
Grieving Relatives Seek Closure as University Massacre Victims are Reburied in Peru, July 18, 2008
Posted By: The Advocacy Project   Jul 22, 2008
Article
July 18, 2008, Lima, Peru: The remains of ni...
Carbon-Free Does NOT Require Nuclear
Posted By: Richard Treadwell   Jul 17, 2008
Article
Many prominent science magazines argue that ...

MOST VIEWED
Abuse Your Friend's Toilets
Posted By: Christopher   Sep 02, 2007
Blog
Abue Your Friend's Toilets<...
Forget the Electric Car: This one runs on compressed air!
Posted By: Alec Henderson   Jan 12, 2008
Article
When I first saw this article I thought it w...
Don't drink the water!
Posted By: Will   Sep 07, 2007
Article
Bottled water is healthy water – right?</p...
The Meat Industry and the Environment
Posted By: Christopher   Sep 02, 2007
Blog
Here are only a few facts from the November ...
Digging deep for capitalism
Posted By: Patrick Scott   Nov 08, 2007
Blog
Mining and particularly the mining of precio...

HIGHEST RATED
Cause of Severe Hunger
Posted By: Amy's Hunger Awareness   Aug 29, 2007
Article
The cause of most hunger stems from some dis...
Race and Urban Poverty
Posted By: Ending Urban Poverty   Aug 29, 2007
Blog
Poverty twice as likely for minority ethnic ...
Homelessness
Posted By: Ending Urban Poverty   Aug 29, 2007
Blog
Homelessness is the condition and societal c...
How weird
Posted By: Jason Boyer   Aug 29, 2007
Blog
So, the world goes viral and a huge amount o...
Biodiversity Hotspots
Posted By: Evan   Aug 30, 2007
Blog
Some parts of the world with so much flora a...